Revelation Of Grace Part 2 – Lawson Perdue & Andrew Wommack
The Revelation Of Grace Part 2 from Pastors Lawson & Andrew Wommack. In this second episode of a special series of Grace For Today, Pastor Lawson has guest Andrew Wommack on discussing grace. You will have a better understanding of how to live the balance of grace and faith after watching.
The Grace Life Package
The Grace Life Package includes some of our favorite teachings from Pastor Lawson and Andrew Wommack, about living a life full of the Grace of God. This bundle consists of Grace Life and Revelation of Grace in your choice of CD, USB, or as a Digital Download:
Revelation Of Grace Part 2 Transcript
Welcome friends, to the broadcast. I’m so glad that you’ve tuned in today. I have my good friend and mentor, Andrew Wommack with me, and we’re talking today about the revelation of grace. And we’re gonna be specifically talking about the balance of grace and faith. You know, we have some people, they’re a word of faith. Other people, they say they’re a word of grace and sometimes they get in arguments. But actually, I am a word of faith and a word of grace preacher. So open your heart and receive the good word today. Blessings. Friends, I’m so glad that you’re with us today. I have my good friend Andrew Wommack, my mentor. Thank God, Andrew, you’ve been such a blessing in my life. It’s amazing.
You’ve been a blessing brother, it’s awesome to see what God’s doing in your life. It’s grace.
Yeah, 44 years ago, I went to your meetings in the Mark Hall.
You’re giving away your age.
‘Cause you were 14 when you came to that Bible study and got baptized in the Holy Spirit.
And called to preach. Now here’s something that’s really interesting. You know, when I came to your meetings, two things primarily happen. Number one, is I got baptized in the Holy Spirit, and that was life-changing.
And if you’re not baptized the Holy Spirit as a believer, you should call in today and pray with our prayer ministers, and receive the baptism of Holy Spirit. But not only that, but I begin to understand who I was in Christ.
And the primary thing that I understood about that was that I am the righteousness of God in Christ. Now, I understood righteousness, but I didn’t have a revelation of grace. And they kind of fit together, you know, grace and righteousness. But at the same point in time, I understood because the Bible said right, that we’re the righteousness of God, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 5:17, all these different scriptures really talk about that. But I did still didn’t really have a revelation of grace.
You know, that’s interesting to me. I’ve been enjoyed talking to you sometime about this ’cause I had that revelation, but apparently I wasn’t saying it real clearly back then ’cause I was really emphasizing who you are in Christ, talking about your position.
Right, so I understood that. Now, when did you get a revelation of grace?
Well, when I experienced the Lord loving me by grace in 1968.
[Lawson] March 23rd, 1960.
March the 23rd. But you know, this is probably really good for the viewers Lawson, but you are a product of what you’ve been taught, and when you receive something from God, it changes your heart, but it doesn’t change your head immediately. You gotta renew your mind. And so I was instantly preaching on God loves us, that who we are in Christ, I got a revelation at Spirit, Soul and Body, but it took me a long time to get renewed from the legalistic mindset that I was in.
Well and that’s the same with me because I was 14 right, when I received this baptism of Holy Spirit, and really begin to understand who I was in Christ. And I mean, it transformed my life. My life went from night to day. I was saved-
I saw it.
but I was very stuck. But boy, when, you know, you talk about, I was so hungry for the word, we would go out and irrigate hay seed up, and we’d see, I would nearly read the New Testament in a day, sometimes then. I would just take every what, you know, every minute in between those sets, and just, you know, I just, I stayed in the word, and the word really transformed my mind. And so I got an understanding of who I was in Christ. And that really began to be worked out in different areas. You know, like I said, I was very diligent, but yet I still had this legalism, and I think part of that was, you know, I got involved in Assembly of God church, and those Pentecostal churches tend to be, you know, pretty legalistic. And Barbara, you know, I mean, she just says, “You’re not even like living, like the same person.” I think before I got-
a revelation of grace. So I was 30 years old when I got a revelation of grace. And that was through your teaching, when you came to Kit Carson and preached for me, in 1994. And we talked about that on yesterday’s broadcast. But I was very diligent. But before I got a revelation of grace, I pastored for six years. And I remember this man, Jim Mitchik, I talked about him and I’d been pastoring for about a year, and he came up to the altar one day for me to pray for him. It was Sunday morning. And he said, “I’m really struggling.” And I couldn’t understand why Jim would struggle because he’s a good man. He loves God, got a really good family. And I know now why he was struggling. It’s because I was preaching law. I preached before I got a revelation of grace. I preached about 90% on what we need to do and about 10% on what Christ has done. And since I’ve got a revelation of grace, I preach about 90% on what Christ has done, and about 10% on our positive response towards the gospel.
Well, you know, something that you and I both have agreed on before is that you can’t get the grace of God just by people explaining it to you or arguing you into it. It’s got to be a revelation. It has to come by the Holy Spirit. And I can’t just lay hands on you or make you receive it. It has to come by the Holy Ghost. And that was just your time.
You know, we had a Bible school instructor, and this is after I moved here in 2001, and started the church. This is probably 2005 or six. But this guy was a tremendous man. He was a godly man. He operated in the gifts of the Spirit. He was a very good man, had a very good family, but he had no revelation of grace. And one of my boys that grew up in my church, in Kit Carson, had given me a teaching from a man in, I think Tempe, Arizona, but in the Phoenix area, on the book of Galatians called, “Jesus Plus Nothing”. And so I took that set of teachings, I got one from his ministry, and I put it on this guy’s desk, this teacher’s desk. Then I went and told you, I said, “Andrew, I put this teaching on “Jesus Plus Nothing” from pastor so and so, you know, the book of Galatians, on this brother’s desk.” And and you told me, you said, “Lawson, I’ve preached grace all around the world, but I am convinced that you cannot get an understanding of grace except by revelation.”
Which is really what 2 Corinthians 3, talks about. And Paul makes a statement, we can go over there if you want to in 2 Corinthians 3:17-18, and then we can, he’s really comparing the glory of the law and the glory of grace. But in 2 Corinthians 3:17, he says, “Now the Lord is that Spirit, in where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty” or freedom. I’ve been teaching on what grace produces. And grace really produces freedom.
And he says, “But we all with an open face.” So since we’ve come to Jesus, “We look in the word, the veils been removed and we behold as in a glass, or as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord.” So we look into the mirror of the word and we see Jesus in the Word. “And we’re being changed in the same image from glory to glory” or from the, if you take this in context of what he’s saying, from the glory of the law to the glory of grace, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. So it takes the Spirit of God to give you a revelation.
And I bet you you’ve had somebody challenge you as you’re talking about getting from the law into grace. They’ll say, “But there is difference.” There’s the 10 Commandments law and then there’s the ceremonial law. And there are people that’ll say, “We’re delivered from having to offer certain sacrifices, and feast days and doing all of these rituals. But we still have to keep the law.” But look at this right here in that same chapter, he says in 2 Corinthians 3:7, “But if the administration of death, written and engraving in stones was glorious.” So what’s that?
[Lawson] That’s the 10 commandments.
That’s the 10 commandments. You can’t say that this is just some ceremonial law because the only part of the law that was written in stone was the 10 Commandments.
Yeah and Galatians 2:16 says, “Knowing that a man is not justified, but by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus.”
And you know, really Paul’s talking about in Galatians 2, you know, he makes this statement in verse 20, “I’m crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live, in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God.” But if you read that in context, he’s actually talking about being dead to the law.
Absolutely and you know, people who preach the law, I’ve often asked them, I said, “So do you keep the law? Are you perfect?” And they’ll say, “Well no, I don’t keep it all but”, and then they’ll say, “You gotta do the best you can.” But you know, that verse in James 2:10 says, “If you keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, you become guilty of all.” If people really understood what living under the law was like, it’s not do the best you can, and then grace makes up the difference.
The best you can, you know David said, “Man at his best is altogether vanity.”
That’s like Buddhism. Buddhists said, “If you could do these eight things and keep ’em, you’ll be perfect.” No you won’t. Man at his best is altogether a sinner and he needs a savior.
You know, and there are people like me, that our sin was very open, right, and revealed. And I say before you came to Lamar and I got a revelation of-
You didn’t have great sin, did you?
Oh, I was terrible. My dad and I like-
Oh your kidding.
we’d have cussing contests.
No, we’d cuss-
I knew your dad.
till the air turn purple. No, it was terrible.
I knew your dad.
And it wasn’t until I got a revelation of grace that really helped me, really with my tongue.
I didn’t know.
Oh yeah, I struggle with that. But you know, I mean, once I got a revelation of grace, you know, it really helped me control that. And I, so I preach on this and at the Bible school I teach Romans, which you have graciously allowed me to teach, which is my favorite book of the Bible. But you know, I say, “You know Andrew”, I said, “You know, he might be six foot tall in the realm of righteousness, and there’s people like me, we might only be six inches tall”, but I said, “Jesus is about 20 million miles tall.” And Andrew even at his best-
you know, he’s never cussed or never drank coffee. But Andrew at his best, he can’t make it.
You know, and nearly every time you preach, I still listen to you. I’ve been listening to you for 44 years. Totally changed my life. Still changing my life. But you’ll say some, you know, how dumb can you be and still breathe? Or that’s stupid and I say the same thing. But you know, Jesus said, “If you call your brother a fool, you’re in danger of the hell fire.”
And yet, Jesus called people a fool.
Yeah and so I say, “Well nearly every time Andrew preaches, if you go strictly by the, he’s in danger of the hell fire.” So it’s not you, it’s the grace of God. And you need the grace of God as much as I needed the grace of God, we all need the grace of God.
You know, I actually went to a place, in Okefenokee Swamp, in Florida, and there was a guy, Mickey Evans, that had a rehab thing there. And he brought people like Murf the surf, people who were murderers, got put out of prison into this thing ’cause it was in the middle of a swamp, and you couldn’t escape. But anyway, I went there, and they were all rapists and they were murderers, and things like this. And I got up and they had never seen me, never heard of me. And I got up and the way I introduced it was to say, “I’ve never said a word of profanity. I’ve never taken a drink of liquor, I’ve never smoked a cigarette.” And you would think that that just totally puts such a separation between me and these guys who were murderers and rapists, that there would be no way that they could relate to me. But then the next point I got up, I said, “Who wants to be the best sinner that ever went to hell?”
We’ve all sinned and come short of the glory of God. And I said, “There’s no difference between your sin and my sin in God’s sight.” And it just caused those people to receive and man, they understood the grace of God. We had great meetings there.
Yeah and you know, Paul calls this ministry of the law, a ministry of death.
He calls it a ministry of condemnation. And so, if you’re trying to be justified by the law, Galatians 5 says, “You’re fallen from grace.”
You’re gonna miss out on the benefits of grace if you’re trying to be-
Well Galatians 5, right there, it says, “If you tried to be justified by the law, Christ profits you nothing.” And Lawson, there’s a lot of people watching this program that they’re born again, but as far as they’re physical experience here, Christ is profiting them nothing. They don’t get healed. They don’t get prosper. They don’t have any joy, and it’s because they are trying to earn God’s favor instead of receiving it by grace.
Yeah and we don’t get anything from God because of what we do.
[Andrew] Praise God.
We get it because of what Jesus did.
If we got what we deserve, every one of us would go to hell.
We’d split hell wide open.
That’s absolutely true.
And so thank God for the grace of God, it’s changed our life. We’re gonna be back in just a few seconds, and we’re gonna continue to talk about the revelation of grace. So stay tuned. Friends, I want to tell you about our grace package. I received a revelation of grace in Andrew Wommack’s ministry, in 1994, after I’ve been pastoring for six years. It revolutionized my life and it’s helped me in so many different ways. I actually have been called to preach and filled with the Holy Spirit in Andrew’s ministry, 16 years prior to that. But when I received a revelation of grace, it changed me. We’ve also included a great teaching from my son Aaron Perdue on “The Abundance of Grace”. A single CD on “Entangled”, a great message on grace from Aaron, and my series on “Galatians, The Grace of Christ”. You don’t wanna miss this teaching, just like it’s revolutionized my life, it will revolutionize yours. You can share this with your friends. If you don’t wanna call in and get this, you can actually listen to these free on our website at charischristiancenter.com. We wanna get the word to you. Blessings. Friends, I’m glad you stayed with us. And we’re teaching on the revelation of grace, and we’ve been over here in 2 Corinthians 3. And as we were looking at this, there’s a couple of things. I had one person I was asking about because it seems like even in a lot of spirit filled, full gospel churches, there is still a lot of law teaching. There’s a lot of performance mentality. In fact, recently I had a young man in my church, and he was struggling a certain area, and he was going to counselor, they’re getting married, he’s married a really nice girl that you know, we both know, and she’s phenomenal and I really love him. But in the counseling it came out. So they sent him to this specific counseling to help him with these issues. But they recommended that he go to these classes and it’s like a 12 step program. And so he said, “Should I go confess that I’m this?” I say, “Well if you need to go to those classes, do this, say, I was this but now I am the righteousness of God in Christ.” And when you understand this, he calls this ministry of the law, “Ministry of death, a ministry of condemnation.” So I just ask people, “Do you wanna have a death ministry? Do you wanna have a ministry of condemnation?” But I asked this one person and he grew up in one of these very legalistic churches. I said, “Why are people still so enamored with the law and with performance?” And he said, “Because there’s a glory to it and there’s a glory in that performance, and they get caught up in that performance.”
Well yeah, they take pride in the fact that I’m better than you. I’ve done more. It’s a prideful thing. But if they truly understand it, there is no way to glory because all of us have sinned.
And that’s what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1, you know, “No flesh can glory in His presence.”
I believe another reason that people are legalistic is ’cause there’s no model for this. There’s no model for grace. Grace is the, God is the only one who treats us by grace. Everybody else treats us based on performance. You know your church, I know people love you and stuff like that, but you go out and mess up, there’s people that would desert you in a second, they’ll talk about you.
God will forgive you and forget but people won’t.
But people give you what you deserve. Parents give us what we deserve. We sing that song about, “Now I’ve said my ABC’s, tell me what you think of me.” And they say, “Oh, you’re wonderful”, until you mess up, and then they give you a spanking. Everything in the natural world is based on performance. Parents, children, jobs.
Employers, everything. But when it comes to God, He doesn’t give you what you deserve. He doesn’t love you based on what you deserve. And so there’s no role model for it. People just, they don’t relate to it because nobody else will treat you that way.
Yeah but thank God for grace. But it’s like when we started out on Monday’s broadcast, we were just talking about that, and we talked about how when you really get a revelation of grace, it transforms your life.
And and Grace, Titus 2, teaches us to die ungodliness and worldly lust, and live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. And really, when he says, “The grace of God has appeared to all men.” It’s talking about Jesus. And Jesus is the embodiment of grace. And I love this aspect of that. When you begin to understand John 1:14, John said, “The word was made flesh and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten on the Father, full of grace and truth.” And then he goes in verse 16 and says, “Of His fullness, we’ve all received grace for grace.” So, there’s different aspects of grace, right. And then there’s, we receive grace to accomplish the grace, or the gifting on our life. But I like to put it like this. He says, “For the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus.” So I like to say this, “Grace plus truth equals Jesus, which is life, truth minus grace equals law, which produces death.” So, how you-
That’s really good.
approach the truth, if you approach the truth, the word is truth. But if you approach the truth with grace, the truth will produce life, it brings Jesus, brings life. But if you don’t approach the truth with grace, right, it becomes law which produces death.
That’s very good.
And we have to watch how we, I know some grace people that are super legalistic about grace.
Well yeah. I actually had to tell people in our Bible college, they got such a revelation of grace that if somebody came and said something that was legalistic, they would just jump on them and criticize them. And I said, “You know, grace ought to make you gracious. It shouldn’t make you legalistic.” And so that’s very good what you’re saying. Truth is what’ll set you free. But Ephesians 4:15 says, “You have to speak the truth in love.”
[Lawson] In love.
It’s not just truth that’ll set you free. And every one of us have seen people that have gone out and used the word like a club, and they’re speaking truth, but they’re just condemning people, and that drives people away.
You know, we started with the scripture in 2 Corinthians 3:18, it says, “We behold, as in a mirror the glory of God.” So we’re looking in the mirror of the word and we see Jesus and we’re changed into Him, His same image from grace to grace, or from glory to glory, from the glory of the law to the glory of grace. And so that’s using the word as a mirror. And I say, you know, there’s two ways you can use the word. You can use the word like a mirror and you can love people into the things of God, or you can use the the word like a hammer, and try to beat people into submission, and it’ll kill ’em. And before I understood grace, I probably used the word more like a hammer than like a mirror.
And Lawson, there is purpose for that. It says over in 1 Timothy, “That the law is good if a man used it lawfully.” So there is a right use of the law and the purpose of the law wasn’t to set you free, but to point out your sin so that you would quit being self righteous, and thinking that I deserve God’s things. And the law can be used like a club and before a person comes to the Lord, there is a purpose for that. To turn them from self righteousness.
The law, he says in that same thing in 2 Timothy 1, or 1 Timothy?
Oh you know, it’d probably say-
I get first,
I get first and 2 Timothy-
It’s first Timothy 1, I think. But he says, “The lawful use of the law is for unrighteous man. The law was not made for a righteous man.” It’s in 1 Timothy 1.
Yeah, well that’s what I said.
Well, you were right, that’s where it’s at.
I was right.
But I do get the 1st and 2 Timothy stuff confused. So, but thank God for the grace of God. You know, we’ve talked about this one aspect of grace from Titus, right. The grace of God teaches us how to live. So Strongs defines grace, charis, the Greek word charis, as the divine influence on the heart, and it’s reflection in the life. And then we talked about 1 Corinthians 15:10 yesterday. Paul said, “I am what I am by the grace of God, and His grace bestowed upon me wasn’t in vain because I labored more abundantly than they all.” But he almost got back into works, and then he comes back and says, “Yet it wasn’t me, it was the grace of God that was with me.” So the grace of God changes me. But I like to say, “Grace is God doing for us what we could not do for ourselves, in the person of Jesus when he died and rose again.” And that really fits with the whole context of the Bible. Because the Old Testament kind of shows how man failed in his conscience, and his innocence and his ability to govern himself, and the human family and in human performance under the law, and then Jesus came and God did it all for us.
You know, I’m sure you’ve heard me teach on grace, and faith living in the balance of grace and faith. But Ephesians 2:8 says, “You’re saved by grace through faith.” And it’s not one or the other. Faith is emphasizing what you do. Grace is emphasizing what God does and people tend to either emphasize one or the other, and say it’s all grace, it’s all God, which leads people to living a sorry life because they feel like it didn’t matter what I do. But then faith, if you, all you do is preach on faith, well then that leads people to think, I’ve got to do this to make God move.
Right and we don’t make God move.
No, either one of those things will kill you. I often compare it to like sodium and chloride. Both of those are poisons. And if you eat enough of it, it’ll kill you. But you mix it together and it’ll make salt and you’ll die without it. So you have to have grace and faith. You have to have what God does for us, independent of us, plus our response to God.
Faith isn’t something we do to get a response from God. It’s our response to God’s grace.
Right. So I was just sharing a little bit on this Sunday, but I consider myself to be a word of grace preacher, and a word of faith preacher. You know, Paul said, “It’s the word of faith that we preach.” But I was talking about for instance, confession. And if people are in church very long, I strongly preach confession because it’s a biblical principle. But I am not saying these things to make God move. I’m saying these things because this is who God is, and this is what Christ has done, and and now this is who I am. And when I begin to understand that I agree with God, and so I’m not trying to make God move, I’m just agreeing with what God.
Paul said, “That the faith which is of God speaks on this, wise faith speaks.”
And if you don’t believe something enough to get your confession lined up with what you say you’re believing then you’re a hypocrite.
Yeah, in Romans 10:8, he said, “The word is near us even.” Well, verse six says, you know, “The righteousness of faith speaks this way. Don’t say who needs to go into heaven to bring Christ down or who needs to go in the grave to bring Him up.” So we don’t need to pray Him down from heaven. He’s already come. We don’t need to bind the devil in hell, He’s already conquered the devil. So Jesus already came from heaven, He lived on the earth, sinless, holy, perfect, pure, died on the cross for our sins, went to the grave, conquered the devil, and God raised Him from the dead. So then it says in Romans 10:8, “The word is near you, in your heart and in your mouth.” That is the word of faith we preach. So God put the ball in our court. The work’s already done.
So he says, so he goes on and says in Romans 10:9, he says, “So with the heart”, well that’s Romans 10:10. He says in Romans 10:9, “Whosoever will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart, God raised Him from the dead, shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness.” So God made righteousness.
And with the mouth confession is- so that’s both of ’em in one-
Confession is made unto salvation.
You with your heart, you believe, but then you’ve also gotta act, speak it.
Right, so if you’re not saved, that’s how to get saved. You heard about Jesus, you heard He died for your sins, God raised Him from the dead, and now you confess Jesus is Lord. Now, me confessing Jesus is Lord doesn’t make Jesus Lord.
God made Him Lord when He raised Him from the dead. But the reason I confess it is because I heard the gospel and believe it. And you can’t get me not to confess.
Well that Greek word for confess, there means to say the same thing. So in other words, God said, “That Jesus is Lord, every knees gonna bow, every tongues confess.” Now are you gonna agree?
When you agree and confess it, well then it becomes yours.
Praise God. So if you have never received Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, I invite you to call in right now and speak to our prayer ministers, and receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior because the work has already been done.
But you know the same thing, receiving Jesus as Lord, or receiving Christ as your healer, or receiving prosperity, whatever the promise, it’s when we begin to understand who God is, and what Christ has done and when we understand, it really changed who we are. And then when you understand that, you can’t go around in poor mouth all the time, you gotta start talking like God.
I agree 100%.
Praise a Lord. Well, thanks so much for being on the broadcast. We’re gonna be back tomorrow and Thursday. I’ll have Andrew here again, and we’re sharing on the revelation of grace. We’re so glad that you’ve tuned in. If you need prayer, be sure and call us. If you’d like to partner with us on the broadcast, be sure and let us know. We’re sharing the word all around the world. And if you want product, you can give us a call too. Thank you so much and God bless you.
[Announcer] What is Grace? What is the purpose of the law, and how do you appropriate God’s grace in your life? Get answers to all these questions and more, with “The Grace Package”. You’ll receive “The Abundance of Grace”, “The Revelation of Grace”, “Galatians, The Grace of Christ”, and “Entangled” CD series all for $39 when you call 719-418-4000, or visit charischristiancenter.com.
Friends, I certainly hope that you’ve enjoyed the program today, and it’s ministering to you to move into that which God has for you. And I wanna say a great big thank you to all of our partners for helping us share this gospel across the United States, and across the world. It’s because of our partners that we can take this message of grace and faith around the world. If you would like to join our partners and receive that blessing, give us a call today. Blessings.
[Announcer] Thanks for watching “Grace for Today”. This broadcast has been made possible by our faithful partners. If you would like to become a partner, need prayer, or have a question, please call us at 719-418-4000, or to partner online, go to charischristiancenter.com/give. You could write us at, PO Box 63733, Colorado Springs, Colorado, 80962. See you next time on “Grace for Today”.