Revelation Of Grace Part 1 – Lawson Perdue & Andrew Wommack
The Revelation Of Grace Part 1 from Pastors Lawson & Andrew Wommack In this first of a series of special episodes of Grace For Today, Pastor Lawson has guest Andrew Wommack to discuss that you are who you are because of the grace of God. Get ready to receive.
Revelation Of Grace Pt 1 Transcript
Praise the Lord, friends, I am so glad that you’re with us today. I’m so excited about the messages. I have my good friend and mentor, Andrew Wommack with me, and we’re gonna be teaching all of this week about the revelation of grace. And you do not want to miss these broadcasts. Make sure that you tell your friends. Today, we’re gonna talk about we are who we are, because of the grace of God. Thanks so much for tuning in and blessings. Friends, it’s so good to have you with us today, and I have my great friend Andrew Wommack, and my mentor with us, I’m so excited. We’ve been planning these broadcasts for quite a while, and I’m so excited to have him here. We’re gonna be talking about the revelation of grace. And I actually received Christ when I was just eight years old, in the Fringe Church, in Penrose, Colorado, but then I went to Andrew’s meeting in Lamar, Colorado.
I remember that.
In Bobby and Jane Apton’s house, and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And you were just 14 years old, if I remember correctly.
And when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit that night, I knew that I was called into the ministry. So I couldn’t have told you if I was apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, but I knew that I was called into the ministry. And so that was in 1978. Then Barbara and I, you didn’t have a Bible school, then I came and visited you. And but you didn’t have a Bible school. So we ended up going to Lester Sumrall’s Bible school, and I graduated from there in 1988, and we started a church in Kit Carson, which you came there a number of times, and especially when you started Charis Bible College, I think is when you started coming here.
And you helped train Carrie Pickett for me.
And now she’s the vice president of our ministry.
What a blessing.
So you came there, I think it was 1994. So I’d been pastoring for six years at that point in time. Been baptized in the Holy Spirit for 16 years. And it wasn’t until 1994, when you came to the church, and you were ministering for us there at Kit Carson, that I got a revelation of grace. And it just, it just came so fast. And you were teaching from the book of Romans, I don’t know exactly where it was, but you also went to James 2, which is where we’re gonna start today. But you made this statement, and you said, “You know, we’ve all broken God’s law, and it doesn’t matter how much you broke it. It doesn’t matter, it’s like a plate glass window, and it doesn’t matter whether you drove a Mack truck through it, or you shot it with a BB gun, the only way that you can make it perfect is replace it.”
“And make it new.” And Jesus didn’t come just to fix us up. He came to make us new, and so when we came into Christ, we became a brand new creation. But when you said that, it’s just like light flooded my understanding.
That’s the first time you’ve told me that. And I knew you got hold of grace, but I didn’t know when or where, how.
Yeah, and so I’d been pastoring for six years. My wife, Barbara, she said, she says, “I’m not even like living with the same person.”
She says, I’m completely different.
Praise the Lord.
And she doesn’t-
Well, grace will change the life.
Yeah, you know, Aaron just turned seven in 1994. He’s our oldest son, and she doesn’t, you know, our kids all grew up loving Jesus, serving Jesus. They’re all serving Jesus, loving Jesus, married, got good families, they’re all in good churches, they’re all givers, they’re all blessed in different fields in life. But Barbara doesn’t believe our kids would even be where they’re at, she said, “If you wouldn’t have got ahold of grace, I don’t think our kids would be serving God like they are today.” And it really changed me. It changed how, you know, I minister, it changed, she’s like, “You’re, like, living like a total different person.” before I got a revelation of grace, I was so diligent. I’m still very, very diligent. But it was more about what I did, than about what Jesus has done, and my-
But you know, your very testimony, Lawson, is good, because there’s a lot of people, that when you talk about grace, they think, “Well actually, it’s gonna encourage people to go live in sin, it’s gonna set ’em free.” Did just the opposite to you. And see, I believe true grace, it says in Titus 2:11, “The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared unto all men.” And verse 12 says, “Teaching us to deny ungodliness.”
So if you really get grace, like what you did, it’ll make you love God more, not taking it-
Amen, no, it’s not gonna make you sin more. It’ll make you sin less.
Because you find out in your spirit, you actually are sinless.
Amen, praise Jesus.
You know, Romans 6 actually talks about that too. You know, Paul says, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” And his answer is, “God forbid.” And he talks about four things. And really in Romans 5:17, he says, “We left the reign of sin and death, and went into the reign of grace and righteousness, through faith in Jesus.” But then in Romans 6:7-8, he talks about how we live, and the first thing he says, “Well, sin doesn’t have dominion over you.” And here’s, you know, why you don’t wanna let sin reign, is because number one, you’re dead to it. Number two, you’re free from it. Number three, you have authority over it. And number four, it’ll kill you.
And you know, if somebody says they have a revelation of grace, and they’re going on and sinning more, I don’t believe that they really do-
Have a revelation of grace.
I agree, and man, that’s one of the things I love about your ministry is that you got it in balance. You’re emphasizing that we need to believe God, and do certain things, but at the same time, it doesn’t earn us anything.
No, no, so when we receive from God, it’s all based on grace. But if we do anything, it’s because of Christ that’s living in us, it’s the grace of God.
And let me just take this opportunity, this may be a little off the subject, but these people may not know it’s gonna be your background, but when you got turned on, Lawson, you became fanatical. I never saw anybody receive the Word quite as well as you did. And I mean anything I’d say, you know, I could back it up by the Word, you’d just take it. And man, I have seen you grow. And now what God’s doing here, with Charis Christian Center, it’s phenomenal.
Yeah, it’s amazing.
God has helped us so much. And it’s not us, it’s the grace of God. But Barbara, Barbara says, “I’m not even like living with the same person,” that the grace of God has changed me. And she said, “Before, you were so diligent, but it, you know,” she said, “I felt like I could never measure up, and I could never please you. And when you got ahold of grace, that changed.”
Praise to God, that’s awesome.
So Grace has really changed me. But that’s, people often ask me, you know, about, and you know, “How’d you get a revelation of grace?” And that’s, you know, so I had been pastoring for six years. I’d been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and called to preach for 16 years before I really got a revelation of grace.
So when you got the baptism, it was 14, and then I left I guess maybe what, two years after you received the baptism?
Yeah, that would’ve been 1980, I think, you moved up here to Colorado Springs. And so I was-
So I wasn’t around you, and didn’t really know you from ’80 until we reconnected when you were pastor?
Right, well we, when you left, we, the group of us, you know, that were in the Bible study, we tried to start a church, and you know, we didn’t know what we were doing. And we got a pastor that didn’t know what he was doing, and it train wrecked. But then, you know, Pastor Kenny Davis there, he was in the Assembly of God Church in Lamar, and he had a revelation of the word of faith. And we went over to some Bible studies that he was having. And he immediately recognized the call of God on my life. And he started developing me, and really invested in me, and really helped me. And so I was in that church for like-
Well, I knew that you were friends with Kenny, and also you talked a lot about Brother Bierman.
And did you know, I just met him about two months ago.
I went out to his house, and got to meet him and his wife right before she passed.
Yeah, well Kenny, Kenny always talked very highly of Brother Bierman. And I think I first went to Brother Bierman’s church in about 1981, Mark Hankins was ministering up there. And I went, and I heard Billy Eberhart at Kenny Davis’s Church.
Yeah, I found out, I found out that Billy was like Brother Bierman’s youth director or something.
Yeah, well Billy came and ministered for Kenny Davis in Lamar, Colorado.
And so I think that was 1981. And so I knew Billy from way back then, but Kenny really invested in me. And then when we moved to Kit Carson, so we went to, you know, I was in Kenny’s church for seven years, and then Barbara and I, I’d actually done the Assembly of God, they have a correspondent school, a Berean School of the Bible, and then I went out to go to Dr. Lester Sumrall’s school. And when I went out there, I was believing God, this is really interesting story, but I was believing God that I could go to work for the ministry. And so I went there, and they were like, “Well, we don’t have any jobs for you.” Barbara could come and work in, you know, in the preschool, and help with the kids. And I said no, Erin was just seven months old. I thought she needed to take care of him. And I was actually going to night school, so I could work in the day. But I went and talked to the office manager on the first, we drove in there on a Saturday, and or Friday, and we had rented a house. And I went and talked, but we couldn’t move into the house ’til the next Friday or Saturday. And it was this Baptist guy that we rented, Mr. Gilmer’s house in Gilmer Park, on Gilmer Street.
And the neighbors told us that Mr. Gilmer lived there with the Indian tribe, and it was a shack. I mean, 600 square foot, had just a heater, a gas heater in the center of the house. He didn’t even have a fan on. It had this oven, we had to light it with a match, that would help warm the house up. Barbara’d bake a bunch. I mean we didn’t even have a dryer. Aaron was in diapers, and we had these diapers, you know, in Indiana, it’s cold in the winter, we had-
That reminds me of what Jamie and I went through. We’re blessed that our wives stuck with us through all of that stuff.
That was pretty bad.
Yeah, but anyway, so we were there. But I went in to see the office manager at eight o’clock Monday morning. He said, “Well, we don’t have a job for you.” And then I went and picked up six job applications at these different places around there. And then I went back by the office to see Dr. Delron Shirley, and he was the dean of students. He said, and it took me about two hours to pick up those applications. He said, “Hey, has the office manager talked to you?” I said, “No.” His name was Ken Holdrey, he was a great man. And he said, “Well, he wants to talk to you, he called over here.” So I went over there to see him, and he said, “Can you run a computer?” I said, “Well, I’ve never run one.” But he said, “Have you ever done audio or video?” I said, “No, I’ve never done that,” but I said, “I can do anything that Jesus wants me to do.” And he said, “Well, what would we have to pay you?” I said, “Whatever you want to.” And I think minimum wage was 4.10 an hour. So they started me out at 4.10.
You were the right price.
Yeah, so he said, “Well, you come to work next month. Somebody got mad this morning and quit, and we’d like to give you the job, and you can come to work next Monday morning, but I’d like you to come volunteer Saturday if you can.” I said, “Well, we’re able to move in our house either on Friday or Saturday. If we get moved in Friday, I’ll come volunteer Saturday.” So the guy had the house ready, and we were able to move in on Friday. So we moved in on Friday, and then on Saturday, went and volunteered. and Dr. Sumrall had this degree from Berean School the Bible. So I had an equivalent of a two year degree with Berean School, so I went to Dr. Shirley, ’cause it was two months before school started, and I said, “Hey, could we transfer my credit hours?” ‘Cause I had two year’s worth, 64 credit hours. And he said, “Well, get your transcripts.” So we got ’em over there and he looked at ’em, he gave me credit for 42 credit hours. So I was able to take one extra class, and graduate in a year.
And get a two-year degree. And, so we did that, you know, and then we moved to Kit Carson, and started Charis Christian Center, or not Charis Christian Center, Church of the Redeemed in Kit Carson, in 1988. And then you started the Bible school, I think in ’94.
Yep, that’s when we started.
And I started coming up immediately. I was in the very first meetings, you invited me to come up the planning meetings for the school. I still remember going there, and having those meetings.
Oh, they were bigger beginnings. But you know, look what God’s done for us, and for you.
It’s amazing, so that’s the grace of God.
That is the grace of God.
You and I, I’ve often said this about me, and you’d probably agree the same about you, but I’ve often said that, “Man, if I was God, I wouldn’t have chosen me.” I was the most least likely, and I’ve heard some of your stories about people persecuting you, and things that they did to you. Neither one of us were, you know, the most likely to succeed. But man, if you have a heart for God, and if you love God with all your heart, he’s looking at the heart, not necessarily at all your qualifications.
Amen, and you know, when you think about that, it’s the grace of God.
When you look at 1 Corinthians 1, you know, God didn’t choose the wise or the powerful, so on and so forth, but he chose the foolish thing to confound the wise.
Yeah, over in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said that he was least of all the apostles, because he had persecuted the church. But he said, “By the grace of God, I am what I am. But his grace, it was bestowed upon me, wasn’t in vain. I labored more abundantly than they all.” And you know, I was just answering questions on this, on a Bible study I did last night, because I was talking about it’s all grace. And then people were saying, “So, do you not have to do anything?” I said, “No, you do all kinds of stuff, but you do it out of love for God, not trying to earn God’s love. It’s a response, it’s the fruit, not the root of salvation.” And so again, you’re a great example of that, Lawson. Man, you’re a doer.
Thank God. And so, you know what? Anyway, I went to work for Dr. Sumrall, and they gave me those, they transferred, you know, those credit hours. And then I got my two-year degree in one year, and I went to school, you know, went to work. I worked Sunday mornings, I worked free, running sound for two services. So we went early and then I went, I worked eight to five on Monday to Friday. And then I went to school on Monday to Friday night. They had a night school, their night school at the church was actually a lot bigger than the day school. And in one year, I got my two-year degree. I took an extra class. And then we moved back to Kit Carson, and started the church, you know, and God helped us and blessed us there.
Was that a brand new church plant?
In Kit Carson, there was five families that were in a Bible study. Yeah, this is talking about grace, and you know, we’ll tell the story right after this break. But it’s really an amazing story about how when God brought us there, you know, and how he opened up the door to build the building, and how that all went. So we’ll be back right after a short break, and I’m gonna talk about how we started there in Kit Carson. Thanks so much and God bless you. We’ll be right back. Friends, I wanna tell you about our Grace Package. I received a revelation of grace, in Andrew Wommack’s ministry in 1994, after I’ve been pastoring for six years. It revolutionized my life, and it’s helped me in so many different ways. I actually had been called to preach, and filled with the Holy Spirit, in Andrew’s ministry 16 years prior to that. But when I received a revelation of grace, it changed me. We’ve also included a great teaching, from my son Aaron Purdue, on “The Abundance of Grace,” a single CD on “Entangled,” a great message on grace from Aaron, and my series on “Galatian: The Grace of Christ.” You don’t wanna miss this teaching. Just like it’s revolutionized my life, it will revolutionize yours. You can share this with your friends. If you don’t wanna call in and get this, you can actually listen to these free on our website at charischristiancenter.com. We want to get the Word to you, blessings. Well friends, were back again, and we just started talking about how we went to Kit Carson, and started that church, and the grace of God on our lives. But Barbara and I actually, I was working for Lester Sumrall there in 1987 and ’88, while I was going to school. But in February, they offered me a full-time job, on salary, which would’ve been a big position to go to television and work on that side for Dr. Sumrall. And I said, “Guys, I can’t do it, because God’s called me to preach.” But I still didn’t know where I was going, and what I was gonna do. But then not long after that, I was praying, and God gave me this verse in Philemon, about the church in your house, about Jim Michick, who had a, they had a Bible study, and there were five families. It wasn’t always at Jim’s house, it was different people’s house, but Jim was one of the main people. And so he told me to call them, and ask them if they wanted me to go, and, you know, start a, you know, official term. So I called them and Jim said, “We’ll get back with you next week. I’ll talk with the Bible study.” And he called me the next week and said, “We’re all in agreement, you’re supposed to come here and start a church.”
So did you have a building or anything?
No, we didn’t have anything.
So that building you had in Kit Carson, you built that?
We built that. So, anyway.
That was a nice building.
We went to church in May, Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon, the youth group came and loaded up all our stuff out of our house, and put it on a moving truck. Sunday night, we went and graduated from Bible school, and we stayed, you know, at a very cheap hotel, Drake Hotel, you know, in Gilmer Park, right south of South Bend. And Monday morning, we had that moving truck with our car tied on, and we got, you know, headed for Kit Carson. We got to Kit Carson Wednesday morning about 10 o’clock, 10:30. We drove over that overpass, you know, that was right by the church, on the east side coming on Highway 40, where it hits 287. And when we drove over, there’s a triangle of ground between the railroad track, the old highway, and the new highway. And the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me and said, and I looked at Barbara and I said, “That is the best place in this town to build a church.”
And it was, that was great.
You know, she didn’t say anything. But then we went over to one of the families, you know, that had been in the Bible study. There were five families in that Bible study, helped me start the church, and the lady said, “I’m gonna call Jim and Patty Michick and see if they can come in, it was Sharon Mayham, and so while we were waiting for them to come in to eat lunch, and they had three restaurants. Now they have one part-time restaurant there today. So anyway, we were there, and Barbara said, “Lawson knows the best place in this town to build a church.” And Sharon didn’t say a word. And then Jim and Patty came, and we all went to the Wagon Wheel restaurant, and we sat down to eat, and Sharon looked at Jim and said, “Lawson said he knows the best place in this town to build a church,” and Jim said, “Well where’s that?” I said, “Well, that triangle of ground between the old highway and the new highway and the railroad track.” He says, “Isn’t that interesting, we bought that three years ago for some type of outreach ministry.”
And so they already owned the property. So that was a confirmation. And Jim said, “Well, we know we’re supposed to start a church, but we don’t know what the name should be.” Well, before I went to Bible school, I was praying, and my pastor, Kenny Davis, he said, “You’re too mean to be a pastor.” He said, “You have to be an evangelist, or something else, but you’re too mean to be a pastor.” And I was praying at his church, and it was in April before I went to Bible school, and I said, “God, what is my ministry gonna be called?” You know, ’cause I was thinking my traveling, teaching, missionary, whatever ministry, but not a pastor, ’cause my pastor said, “You’re not a pastor.” And God spoke to me just really clearly, and he said, “Church of the Redeemed.” And man, it was so clear, and I just thought, “Well, that’s it, I’m gonna be a pastor.” And so when Jim mentioned, he said, “Well, we don’t know the name.” I said, “Well, what about Church of the Redeemed?” And he said, “Isn’t that in Isaiah 35?” And I said, “Yeah, it’s Isaiah 35:10, ‘The redeemed of the Lord shall return,'” and you know, the zion, and everlasting jewel will be on their heads. And he said, “You remember last summer, you came and taught on Isaiah 35?” And I said, “Yeah, I taught their Bible study.” And it was a Thursday night in July, and I remember that afternoon, I was working hard on the farm, probably got up at four o’clock and went to work, worked ’til about two or three, and then just laid down to take like a 15 minute power nap. And when I woke up, the Lord told me, “Teach on Isaiah 35.” It just was so clear in my spirit, and I thought I didn’t, I probably had never read Isaiah 35. So I opened Isaiah 35, read it, made a few simple notes, went back to work, and that evening I drove up to Kit Carson, it was about an hour from our house, north of Lamar. So I taught on Isaiah 35, and they were so excited. And I thought, “This is crazy, I don’t know anything about this, and they’re so excited about this.” Well anyway, Jim said, “You remember you taught on that?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “The week before you came, we had a man through here who’s an apostle, and he said that this place, Isaiah 35 is the vision for this place.
[Andrew] Oh wow.
And so when God gave me that name, and I said, “Yeah, it’s Isaiah 35:10,” Jim said, “We’re building a church, and the name will be Church of the Redeemed.”
Praise the Lord.
And God, God, but see, God told me, gave me that word, then they had bought the property, and I didn’t know any of this. You talk about the grace of God,
That is grace, because see, you couldn’t have planned that.
You couldn’t have put this together. You couldn’t have made that apostle say this, and Jim do. It’s just the grace of God.
No person can take credit.
No, it’s God’s work.
And you know, we went there, and within 15 months of going there, we had a church, 5,400 square foot, would seat 200 in the sanctuary. We had it completely paid off. Lester Sumrall came and dedicated our building. Lester said, “It’s a long time since I’ve been this far out in the country.” And he flew, they flew their jet, landed in Lamar, and we picked him up and drove him up there, and he preached.
Yeah, you need to let the people know that, I mean that was Kit Carson was a small town. How many people were there?
And so to have a church that seated 200, in a town of 300.
This was a megachurch.
Yeah. And we had average attendance while we were there, of about 75, but we had about 125 people call the church home.
I use you as an example a lot, Lawson, that, you know, some people look at these megachurches, and think that unless you have 10,000 members, you’re nothing, but man, it’s really proportional to where you are.
And so in Kit Carson, you were a megachurch, and God used you in a powerful way.
You know, we had pastors in the neighbor town that called us a megachurch.
Is that right?
Yeah. And I think it’s because of our mentality. And you know, this is something that’s really unique, so Kit Carson, 300 people in the town, probably is not quite that big now. There were 2,200 people in the county, in Cheyenne County, and that county covers about 2,400 square miles. So less than one person per square mile. But God took me to Kit Carson, and he put me around Jim Michick, and his Uncle Irvin ended up coming to my, and those guys thought big. And do you know what? It helped, it helped me begin to think in a new dimension. So God put me in a really small place, around some people that thought really big, and it helped me break some boundaries in my mind.
And it helped me, you know, in the ministry. And then really in 1998, it was in Mark Hankins’ meetings, at Billy Eberhart’s church, in Denver, when Billy pastored, Billy actually invited Barbara and I to come there, and our whole family, and took care of us the whole week, and we didn’t hardly have any money. You know, I think I put $100 in that offering. But Billy put us in the Marriott hotel, paid for all of our meals, and just took care of us. And I gave him $50 a month for years. He didn’t even know it, I told him, he said, “Well thank you for that,” that I’d done that.
But is this when you got your revelation about the French fries?
Taking, yeah, taking the limits off of God? Yeah, Barbara, we were leaving, and Mark was using some examples that just challenged my religious thinking. And Barbara said, “He is right, and you’re wrong.” And she said, “You can be a one French fry man if you want to.” We went to McDonald’s and I ordered one Quarter Pounder with Cheese meal, and two, it was two for $2, on Quarter Pounders with Cheeses back then in 1998. And so I ordered two of those, there were five of us, and four waters, and one meal. And then I went to the bathroom, and Barbara brought the meal, and she put my Quarter Pounder with Cheese, and the French fry box with one French fry in it, and then I don’t know who got the drink, and my water. And I came and I said, “Where’s my French fries?” Because even if you split a box of French fries five ways, you get more than one French fry. And she said, “You can be a one French fry man if you want to, but God has more.” And she said, “Mark was right, and you’re wrong, and you need to get over it.”
And look what God’s done now.
Look at this facility that you had.
Yeah, and it’s completely paid for, and you know what?
What’s it worth? What’s the net worth of this?
So the county valuation on this property is $22 million.
And if you hadn’t to build it today up here in this area, it’s on 15 acres, it would cost probably over 60 million. It’s a miracle of God, and it’s completely paid for.
And when you moved in-
It was paid for.
That is phenomenal.
Well, it’s supernatural.
It’s the grace of God.
Talk about grace.
Yeah, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And they are charismata, they are gifts of grace. And so praise God, but it’s been, it’s been, you know, it’s been amazing what God’s done, and it is the grace of God.
I tell you what, every time I think about you, Lawson, I just praise God because I guarantee you, you’re a miracle. I remember when you were 14, came to that Bible study, and you were raised in kind of poverty. You lived in a little trailer-
Yeah, it was-
To see what God’s doing and where you live now, it’s just God.
It’s amazing. God’s grace is amazing. Well, thank you so much for tuning into the broadcast and being with us today. And we’re gonna have this product on revelation of grace available, and we’re gonna make a package with it. But I’m so honored, Andrew, to have you all this week with us on the broadcast. And if you need prayer, be sure and give us a call. And if you want a product, or wanna partner with us, and help us, we’re sharing the gospel all around the world in different ways. And praise God for the message of grace that’s transformed our lives. God is so good. Thanks for tuning in. Tune in tomorrow at this same time, and tell your friends about the broadcast. Blessings.
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